Join Josh and Austin this week as they answer the big question: Should Retirees Have a Mortgage in Retirement? In this episode the guys make having a mortgage not so scary – as they dive into tax considerations, retirement budgets, estates, as well as highlight some statistics regarding mortgages in retirement. Some of these numbers may shock you – listen in now!
Main Talking Points
[1:35] – Statistics on Debt in Retirement
[3:48] – How Long Until Retirees Pay Off Their Mortgage?
[5:19] – Why Would a Retiree Carry a Mortgage?
[9:22] – Why You Might Not Carry a Mortgage
[10:23] – Market Performance
[12:57] – Dad Joke of the Week
[15:01] – Tax Considerations
[16:12] – Emotional Burden of Debt
[18:56] – How a Mortgage Affects My Cash Flows
[19:27] – Estate Planning
[20:15] – Should You Have a Mortgage in Retirement?
Links & Resources
028: Should You Buy or Rent a Home? – The Invested Dads
026: Debt – Friend or Foe? – The Invested Dads
052: Understanding Your Credit Score – The Invested Dads
Most Retirees Today Have a Mortgage – Center for Retirement Research at Boston College
Many Retired People Don’t Expect to Pay Off Mortgages – AARP
Should You Pay Off Your Mortgage in Retirement? – CNBC
Invest With Us – The Invested Dads
Free Guide: 8 Timeless Principles of Investing
Social Media
Full Transcript
Intro:
Welcome to The Invested Dads Podcast, simplifying financial topics so that you can take action and make your financial situation better. Helping you to understand the current world of financial planning and investments, here are your hosts, Josh Robb and Austin Wilson.
Austin Wilson:
All right. Hey, hey, hey. Welcome back to The Invested Dads Podcast, a podcast where we take you on a journey to better your financial future. Today, we are going to be talking about if retirees should have a mortgage in retirement.
Josh Robb:
No. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Tune in next week for … What are we going to do?
Austin Wilson:
Nothing that simple. Nope. Can’t be that easy. I’m sure there’s more to it, Josh.
Josh Robb:
So it’s not just straight no answer. All right.
Austin Wilson:
No.
Josh Robb:
I’m sure you, being the type of guy you are, you got some statistics, right?
Austin Wilson:
I do.
Josh Robb:
What we’re actually looking at today is we’ve done an article on renting versus owning a home.
Austin Wilson:
An article?
Josh Robb:
We’ve talked about debt. Article? Podcast?
Austin Wilson:
Podcast.
Josh Robb:
Well, it’s in transcript, so it’s an article.
Austin Wilson:
That’s right.
Josh Robb:
We talked about debt-
Austin Wilson:
We did.
Josh Robb:
… and different types, mortgage being one of those.
Austin Wilson:
We’ll link all these in the show notes.
Josh Robb:
Yep. But today, we’re looking at a specific group of people who are in a unique situation, where debt means a little something different to them. Today, we’re really looking at should retirees be carrying this debt? Is it helpful? Is it a burden? Is there issues? What do we need look at? And you’re right. As a financial advisor, a lot of times, we tell people, “The best case scenario is to be debt free heading into retirement.” That’s why my default answer is no. But we’ll actually find out. There may be situations where it makes sense.
[1:35] – Statistics on Debt in Retirement
Austin Wilson:
Yeah, absolutely. Let’s dig into some numbers because I like numbers.
Josh Robb:
Who doesn’t though?
Austin Wilson:
I mean, they’re just really fun. These numbers might shock you, actually. According to an article … Now, some of these articles are a little dated because this is not always constantly updated. But they’re relatively recent. According to an article from 2019, from the Center For Retirement Research by Boston College … And we’ll link that in the show notes. In 1990, so way back-
Josh Robb:
A long time ago.
Austin Wilson:
… 32 years ago, 24% of people ages 65 to 79 retired with a mortgage. So about a quarter.
Josh Robb:
Okay. A quarter.
Austin Wilson:
Over 80-year-old people in 1990, 3% had a mortgage. In 2016, so flash forward, that would be 26 years. Does that math check out? Yeah, it does.
Josh Robb:
Yeah.
Austin Wilson:
26 years later, it’s 46% of people ages 65 to 79 retired with a mortgage-
Josh Robb:
Wow.
Austin Wilson:
… and 26% of people over 80.
Josh Robb:
Okay. Let’s break that down.
Austin Wilson:
Big, big changes.
Josh Robb:
For 65 to 79, that one is like those people really entering retirement, because the average retirement is actually 62 here in the US. But pretty much, 65, Medicare starts. That’s a point of good measurement. 24%. So it went from 24-
Austin Wilson:
To 46.
Josh Robb:
… to 46. That’s a pretty big jump. Almost doubled-
Austin Wilson:
It almost doubled.
Josh Robb:
… if my math is correct, because numbers.
Austin Wilson:
It’s like half, pretty much. That’s crazy.
Josh Robb:
Yeah. Almost a 50% increase of where it was. And it’s almost half of the people that heading into retirement carry a mortgage. But the crazy one is over 80, because if you think about this, you can either get a 15 year or 30 years, the norm for a mortgage. Let’s say you get a 30 year. If you upgraded, switched, downsized, whatever you want to look at, if you did that at 50, you would be done with your mortgage by 80. So these are people that are carrying probably a newer mortgage through that timeframe, and it went from 3% to 26% of people over 80. Or, in other words, a quarter of the people over 80 are carrying a mortgage.
[3:48] – How Long Until Retirees Pay Off Their Mortgage?
Austin Wilson:
So you kind of hit on it, but it depends on … Let’s talk about how long before some of these retirees plan to pay off their mortgage. There was a different article from 2018, from AARP. They said that 20.08% of retirees planned on paying off their mortgage within the next year. That’s not bad.
Josh Robb:
Well, hold on. I know we like numbers, but you’re going two decimal places on this?
Austin Wilson:
I know, I know.
Josh Robb:
20.08%.
Austin Wilson:
It’s very accurate. It’s very accurate.
Josh Robb:
Keep going.
Austin Wilson:
6.50 percent of retirees plan on-
Josh Robb:
Also known as six and a half.
Austin Wilson:
Exactly.
Josh Robb:
Yep. Keep going.
Austin Wilson:
Planned on having their mortgage paid off in one to two years. 13.77 in three to five. 10.71 in six to eight. 32.31, about a third of retirees said they planned on having their mortgage longer than eight years. And here’s the kicker. 16.63 … very accurate number-
Josh Robb:
Oh, yeah.
Austin Wilson:
… percent of retirees said they might have their mortgage forever-
Josh Robb:
Wow.
Austin Wilson:
… or for the rest of their life-
Josh Robb:
That’s crazy.
Austin Wilson:
… and then I guess their estate would sell it, right?
Josh Robb:
Yeah.
Austin Wilson:
That’s how that goes.
Josh Robb:
The way I look at this is it’s really two groups of people. You have the one that’s saying, “I’m paying it off right away.” Or the group that says-
Austin Wilson:
I don’t care.
Josh Robb:
… “I don’t care. I’m going to have it.” Because you look at that, it’s either 20% say, “I’m paying it off in that first year,” or you got, what, 49% saying-
Austin Wilson:
Forever.
Josh Robb:
… “possibly plus eight years, but it’s going to down the road.”
Austin Wilson:
Yeah. But probably forever.
Josh Robb:
That’s crazy.
[5:19] – Why Would a Retiree Carry a Mortgage?
Austin Wilson:
The question that we must ask ourself, if we’re looking at these-
Josh Robb:
Yes. Let’s ask.
Austin Wilson:
… big numbers of retirees with mortgages is why?
Josh Robb:
Why?
Austin Wilson:
Why would a retiree carry a mortgage? Well, there are a couple reasons. This goes back to the Boston College article from the Center of Retirement Research. They actually quoted Harvard Senior Research Associate Jennifer Molinsky. This is some credible stuff here. This is Harvard and Boston College and AARP. These are real sources. This lady says there are about three … There’s more than three, but there are three main reasons that these numbers have changed over the years. Number one, people have less aversion to debt to date than they did in the past. What this can largely be attributed to is, in the past, a lot of these retirees, prior to this generation, they had lived through the Great Depression. They saw some terrible financial situations, terrible financial markets, bad economies, and that changed the way that they looked at debt. Well, that’s not the case anymore. A lot of the retirees that we have today, they were born either after this or towards the end of it, and never really remember anything about that. So they’ve really only been in much more favorable economic situations than the Depression.
Number two, mortgage rates. Mortgage rates have fallen dramatically from where they were in recent decades. Even retirees are refinancing at the lower rates, even if they bought their house years and years and years ago. We’re going to talk about mortgage rates in a second. And number three, housing prices have increased faster than earnings over the last handful of decades, by and large. There have been some changes in things, like, obviously, the global financial crisis housing bubble, that was a big problem. But, in general, housing prices, much faster growth than wages. In the late eighties or early nineties, the average home was about three times earnings. Well, in 2019, it was more than four times earnings. If you do a comparison, that’s a 33% increase per wage, wage neutral, on how much a house would cost versus what you earn. That’s a lot.
Josh Robb:
Yeah. That’s a lot.
Austin Wilson:
So those are a couple reasons why people are having mortgages. I guess, as a quick reminder, though, we should talk about mortgage rates like we just hit on. We’re doing this on February 4th, 2022. As of today, according to my Bloomberg Terminal, 30-year fixed national average, 3.8%. 15-year fixed national average, 3.2%. Those are averages. If you were to go get a brand new mortgage today, average pretty decent credit-
Josh Robb:
So you could probably get lower. Some people might qualify for higher.
Austin Wilson:
You could get higher. You could get lower. Yeah. It really depends on your credit score. We have a whole episode on credit score information if you want to know how that works. But if you think about this in general, if you closed on your loan before COVID and haven’t refinanced, your rates might be a little higher. They could be 4% to 5%. If you close on your loan during COVID or refinance, they may even be quite a bit lower, 2% to 3%.
Josh Robb:
I actually talked to a guy who got a 15-year for 1.8%.
Austin Wilson:
Oh, wow.
Josh Robb:
Isn’t that crazy?
Austin Wilson:
We did a refinance in the end of 2020. Mortgage rates were really low, and we were really glad we did, looking back historically, because rates have shot up since then. So when you look at a bad economic situation, if you have the ability to refinance, there are some perks to that.
Josh Robb:
You need to take advantage of it. Yeah.
Austin Wilson:
So that is where we are on current mortgage rates, which leads me to more stuff that I like to talk about.
Josh Robb:
Yes. High level, though, we were asking, should they?
Austin Wilson:
Yeah. We’re not there yet.
Josh Robb:
But what you just told me was-
Austin Wilson:
They do.
Josh Robb:
… they do. In fact, about half of the people heading into retirement are carrying a mortgage, and part of the reason is housing is costing more, so they’re having a larger mortgage so that it’s harder or longer to pay off. Rates are low. Maybe they refinance, so they extended that mortgage out by their refinance. If you had a 30-year and you were 20 years in, and then you do a new 30-year, well, you’re making your length an extra 10 years because you … Yeah. Either way, I think we know what they’re doing, but now we’re going to break down the numbers behind the why you should or shouldn’t.
[9:22] – Why You Might Not Carry a Mortgage
Austin Wilson:
Yeah. Let’s talk some math. We talked statistics. Now we’re going to talk regular math that’s not statistics. Assuming you have a fixed rate mortgage, which is really what most financial professionals would recommend-
Josh Robb:
Yes. The other option being an ARM, adjustable rate mortgage, A-R-M.
Austin Wilson:
As opposed to a leg … I can’t figure out words in my head that fast.
Josh Robb:
I don’t know.
[10:23] – Market Performance
Austin Wilson:
But yes. We’re going to focus on fixed rate mortgages because it’s very easy to do math on. That means your interest rate is locked in for the entire life of the loan. It does not float up and down there. So, assuming you have a fixed rate mortgage, which we talked about rates just a little bit ago, additional principal payments essentially save you the interest you would be paying on the loan. Essentially, you’re earning your interest rate in return. At today’s rates, at 3.8% on the 30-year or 3.2% on a 15-year, those would be roughly your returns for putting money to work on your mortgage, in addition to your normal payment. That’s one end of things.
Now let’s look at the historical performance of markets since 1950. Now I’m quoting a slide from J.P. Morgan’s Guide To The Markets, which is a great resource in general, but there are a couple buckets that you talk about here. Number one, US stocks since 1950 have returned about 11 and a half percent annual. Bonds have returned around 5.8% annualized.
Josh Robb:
Yep. Which is weighted heavily to the past history.
Austin Wilson:
Well, because interest rate declining environment and is very good, is a bond increasing price environment, which is good for bond returns. And then they’re using a 50/50 portfolio, which is very, very conservative, in fact, more conservative than most people will actually hold. Even a 50/50 portfolio over that time period averaged a 9% annualized return.
Josh Robb:
Not bad.
Austin Wilson:
Those are your bogies. You range from 5.8% to 11.5% in returns. That is where we’re at. That’s the base line. The math says, “If you can earn more money by investing it than you pay to service your debt and interest, then you should. You should invest it.” The example would be if you’re invested in a hypothetical 50-50 portfolio like we just talked about, you can and have historically got around a 9% annual-
Josh Robb:
Longterm. Yeah.
Austin Wilson:
… longterm return. Now that’s not every year, but that’s over time. So, historically, if you have a 4% fixed rate mortgage, you’d lose out on about a 5% of appreciation of your capital if you were to pay more-
Josh Robb:
The difference between those.
Austin Wilson:
… on your debt. It’s the difference. You just subtract those two. That’s what the math says, and the math, it really says the same for, at any stage in life, when it comes to your mortgage. We’ve hit on this in a couple different episodes. If you’re young, you have the ability to pay ahead on your mortgage, and that’s the same idea. You could invest it or pay ahead. Historically speaking, investing, especially in stocks, has earned a bigger return than the interest you would’ve been paying on your mortgage.
Now, in the eighties, that would’ve been a little bit harder sell because you were paying 14% on a mortgage. The historical longterm average of stocks is actually not quite 14%. So, actually, if you were to do this episode in 1987, you probably would have had a little bit different discussion. Right.
Josh Robb:
Even if it just gets closer, right?
Austin Wilson:
Yeah.
Josh Robb:
If interest rates go up and, instead of a 4% mortgage, you’re at six, and you’re at six to nine, that’s a 3% difference. The closer you get to those two numbers, then the harder it is to just say straight math wins out. You’re right.
[12:57] – Dad Joke of the Week
Austin Wilson:
So Josh-
Josh Robb:
Yes.
Austin Wilson:
I think I need to give you a dad joke of the week.
Josh Robb:
I do. I need a little break from your math and your numbers.
Austin Wilson:
It’s been pretty exciting.
Josh Robb:
Let’s hear what you got.
Austin Wilson:
Here’s the joke. What should you do if you were addicted to seaweed?
Josh Robb:
Hmm. If you’re addicted to seaweed, what should you do? You should see kelp. That’s my guess.
Austin Wilson:
That’s the answer.
Josh Robb:
Is that it?
Austin Wilson:
Yeah.
Josh Robb:
Aw. That’s my guess.
Austin Wilson:
Or try CBD.
Josh Robb:
CBD?
Austin Wilson:
S-E-A.
Josh Robb:
Ah, there you go.
Austin Wilson:
I don’t know. This is just some stuff from Reddit, but it’s pretty funny.
Josh Robb:
I like it.
Austin Wilson:
That is the dad joke of the week.
Josh Robb:
Have you ever had kelp? Have you eaten kelp?
Austin Wilson:
I’ve eaten seaweed.
Josh Robb:
Seaweed?
Austin Wilson:
Yeah.
Josh Robb:
It’s the same, right?
Austin Wilson:
Yeah. I think. It’s in a lot of Japanese food.
Josh Robb:
Dried stuff?
Austin Wilson:
It’s good. I like the dried stuff.
Josh Robb:
It’s like chips.
Austin Wilson:
You can put it in soup and stuff, though, too. But I really like the dried, crispy stuff. It’s got a little oil, a little salt.
Josh Robb:
It’s like a chip almost. It’s got to be good for you, right?
Austin Wilson:
Think about sushi and stuff. All that stuff. Josh, this is-
Josh Robb:
Side note.
Austin Wilson:
Oh, man.
Josh Robb:
They should print newspapers on that stuff.
Austin Wilson:
Then you could eat it.
Josh Robb:
Yeah. Any kind of seaweed or whatever. Well, because then you’d also know current events, current being the ocean. That’s my joke.
Austin Wilson:
Josh, you’re killing me.
Josh Robb:
Because it’s a newspaper. Anyway.
Austin Wilson:
This is Josh’s time to shine-
Josh Robb:
Yes, it is.
Austin Wilson:
… because we did a lot of statistics. We did a lot of math. We did a lot of numbers. I am ready to hear a lot of advice, culminating with answering the big question.
Josh Robb:
The big question.
Austin Wilson:
Which we’ll get to, of should you have a mortgage in retirement? So, Josh, guide us through this discussion.
[15:01] – Tax Considerations
Josh Robb:
Yeah. You just gave the … If you were a robot and you had a formula and a calculation, what would the answer be? The answer is you take your interest rate versus the rate of return, and you say, “Which one’s better? That’s where my money should go.” Now I’m going to talk about from a financial advisor perspective. We’re not robots, and there’s emotion involved, and there’s other factors. So what you have to sit down and ask yourself is if you’re a retiree and you say, “Maybe I’m retiring in the next couple years. Should I be really focusing on getting rid of my mortgage? Or is it okay?” Here’s some of the things we’ve talked through, one of which, and you hear this a lot is, well, I get some tax deductions for owning debt.
Austin Wilson:
Why would I sell my home?
Josh Robb:
Why would I get rid of my mortgage? Yeah. Why would I get rid of my mortgage because I get my interest deduction?
Austin Wilson:
We’re not talking about selling your home.
[16:12] – Emotional Burden of Debt
Josh Robb:
Don’t sell your home. A couple things about that. One, interest deduction is not a huge … If you look at your tax return, in the overall scheme of things, it doesn’t really provide a lot of help against your income. The other thing is most retirees taking the standard deduction since they’ve increased that. For a married couple, the deduction’s over $24,000 now with the increase they do. So, for a lot of people, once you’re retired, your deductions really go down. Yeah, you may have a mortgage interest deduction, but it may not apply because you’re taking the standard. That’s just one thing to keep in mind. But maybe you are. And then you have the salt tax and all that fun stuff that factor into on where it goes, federal versus state, and all that fun stuff. So that’s tax consideration. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn’t. But I never let taxes decide my investment. I’m aware of taxes, but that should not be the deciding factor in what you make investment decisions on. Then the second one is how will I feel emotionally in retirement with debt? There’s an article from CNBC, a 2021 article.
Austin Wilson:
Ooh, that one’s like new.
Josh Robb:
Oh, brand new. They actually recommend in this article paying off debt, or, at least, advisors in this article recommend paying off debt because of the burden of debt. That’s what I want to talk about. My first answer at the very beginning, kind of a joke, was just no, just straight no. That’s not really the answer. But the no aspect of that is should you have mortgage debt? For a lot of retirees, debt is okay when they have income coming in. When they have a job and they’re earning income, the debt’s manageable because they have this cash flow that they’re cash flow positive. Well, in retirement, you’re cash flow negative.
Austin Wilson:
You’re you’re pulling money out.
[18:56] – How a Mortgage Affects My Cash Flows
Josh Robb:
Which is part of retirement. That’s okay. But you’re taking money out to pay for all your expenses, food, shelter, all that stuff. But the mortgage piece is a debt or an obligation that you’re required to pay every month, and you can’t really adjust it. You can cut back on food. You can cut back on your travel. You can cut back on your entertainment. But the mortgage is going to be there every month. It’s the same. You got to pay it. So that’s really where this emotional benefit comes in. Having no debt gives you that sense of freedom, that there is no obligation, that you choose exactly how much you’re spending each month, without that set obligation amount coming up. That’s another emotional aspect piece.
It’s weird to watch that. I’ve seen it many times working with retirees. While they’re working, man, they’ll take just about every risk. risk tolerance wise, they’re just all in. And then once that cash flow stops, their ability to even stomach market volatility drastically changes. You got to be, as an advisor, especially, aware of that change, that they’re going to look at things differently. So you got to reevaluate not only this debt question, but your overall allocation question is are they still in a spot that’s comfortable for them with their new outlook? That’s a big one.
I think, to me, that’s the biggest factor, really, for retirees to answer that question. How do you respond to that obligation? We have some retirees that say, “Yeah, I want to carry that debt. Maybe I have it mostly paid off. But you know what? If I had to, I could write a check and pay that off from my retirement accounts or whatever. I’m just choosing not to for now because I can cover the payments, and it’s not a big deal.” or there’s others that just don’t have a choice. They have to keep that mortgage. They can’t afford to pay it off, and they really don’t want to move or sell. So they’re just stuck. They just have to learn to live with it. But that emotional piece matters. The next one, it follows along in there, but it’s the cash flow piece. It’s just how does my retirement budget fit?
Austin Wilson:
Inflows versus outflows.
[19:27] – Estate Planning
Josh Robb:
Yeah, because I may be getting a fixed income. Maybe it’s a pension. Maybe it’s rental income. Maybe social security. And maybe I have some investments as well, but this fixed retirement income, I have to make all my expenses fit. This is probably one of your bigger expenses, your mortgage. So if I can knock that out before then, my cash flow’s a lot easier. Those are kind of the big ones to think about. And the other one, too, and this is probably for a lot older retirees, but what kind of estate am I going to leave? How complicated is it going to be? What kind of burden am I putting on someone else to take care of these things?
Austin Wilson:
Leaving an asset versus a liability are very different.
Josh Robb:
Yes. Yeah. Those are the things to factor in and consider. The fact that I saw 46% of 80-plus-year-olds, that was just interesting to me, to think that there’s … It makes me wonder if they are legacy homes, where they don’t want to get rid of them because of the family history, or they purchased another home, and it’ll just get sold. So maybe they don’t care. Maybe they’re in the spot they said, “Well, my kids don’t really care about this house. They’ll just sell it, take the difference. And beyond with that, I’ll just carry the mortgage. It’s fine.” I don’t know. But that was just interesting to me.
[20:15] – Should You Have a Mortgage in Retirement?
Austin Wilson:
So, Josh, the big question.
Josh Robb:
Yes.
Austin Wilson:
Should you have a mortgage in retirement?
Josh Robb:
I originally said no, and that is my default answer. Unless you have a reason for it, whether it’s the cash flow issues or situations, or the idea that you’re doing it for … Maybe you bought a lake house, and, again, it’s there. It’s more the ongoing expense. But you don’t really care about that asset being passed on or anything like that. In general, I don’t think there’s a lot of benefit to it. But if a client came to me and had a reason and could sleep at night, I would be okay with it.
Austin Wilson:
Right. So, really, it depends.
Josh Robb:
I was trying not to say it this time.
Austin Wilson:
In moderation? Is that one?
Josh Robb:
I was trying not to say it this time, but, really, that’s it.
Austin Wilson:
That’s it.
Josh Robb:
It really just depends on the situation.
Austin Wilson:
You’re so predictable.
Josh Robb:
I know.
Austin Wilson:
It’s good. Well, as always, check out our free gift to you. It’s a brief list of eight principles of timeless investing. These are overarching investment themes to keep you on track to meet your longterm goals. Check it out. It’s a free PDF on our website. Josh, how can people help us grow this podcast?
Josh Robb:
Yeah. Make sure you subscribe. That way you get all of our episodes, every Thursday, sent directly to you. Leave a review on Apple Podcasts. And, if you have any questions, ideas, thoughts, let us know at Hello@TheInvestedDads.com. If you know somebody who is talking about this or is considering retirement and wanting to know what they should do with their mortgage or debt, share this episode.
Austin Wilson:
All right. Well, until next Thursday, have a great week. All right. Thanks.
Josh Robb:
Bye.
Outro:
Thank you for listening to The Invested Dads Podcast. This episode has ended, but your journey towards a better financial future doesn’t have to. Head over to TheInvestedDads.com to access all the links and resources mentioned in today’s show. If you enjoyed this episode and we had a positive impact on your life, leave us a review, click subscribe, and don’t miss the next episode. Josh Robb and Austin Wilson work for Hixon Zuercher Capital Management. All opinions expressed by Josh, Austin, or any podcast guest are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Hixon Zuercher Capital Management. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for investment decisions. Clients of Hixon Zuercher Capital Management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. There is no guarantee that the statements, opinions, or forecast provided herein will prove to be correct. Past performance may not be indicative of future results. Indices are not available for direct investment. Any investor who attempts to mimic the performance of an index would incur fees and expenses, which would reduce returns. Securities investing involves risk, including the potential for loss of principle. There is no assurance that any investment plan or strategy will be successful.
