Did you just win the lottery? Chances are no, but that’s not stopping Josh & Austin from answering all your questions about taking a lump sum after winning The Mega Millions! In this week’s episode, the guys discuss lump sum taxes, changes in your estate planning when you win the lottery, why you should hire a financial planner, and much more! They even share what they would do it they won the lottery themselves. Listen now!
Main Talking Points
[0:55] – The Mega Millions Lottery
[2:01] – Considering Lump Sum Taxes
[4:50] – Changes in Estate Planning
[6:29] – Hiring a Financial Planner
[10:15] – Dad Joke of the Week
[10:40] – What Would Josh Do if He Won the Lottery?
[14:01] – What Would Austin Do if He Won the Lottery?
[16:06] – Being Thoughtful About Your Extra Cash
[20:31] – Key Takeaways of Winning the Lottery
Links & Resources
What to Do with a Lump Sum –The Invested Dads Podcast
Invest With Us – The Invested Dads
Free Guide: 8 Timeless Principles of Investing
Social Media
Full Transcript
Welcome to The Invested Dads Podcast, simplifying financial topics so that you can take action and make your financial situation better. Helping you to understand the current world of financial planning and investments, here are your hosts, Josh Robb and Austin Wilson.
Austin Wilson:
All right. Hey, hey, hey. Welcome back to The Invested Dads Podcast, the podcast where we take you on a journey to better your financial future. I am Austin Wilson, Research Analyst at Hixon Zuercher Capital Management.
Josh Robb:
I’m Josh Robb, Director of Wealth Management, also at Hixon Zuercher Capital Management. Austin, how can people help us grow this podcast?
Austin Wilson:
Yeah. We would love it if you would subscribe if you’re not subscribed, so you get new episodes when they come out each and every Thursday. We’d love it if you’d leave us review on Apple Podcast, Spotify. Whatever platform you listen to, please leave us a review. We would love to hear from you.
Josh Robb:
Yes.
Austin Wilson:
Today, I don’t know if anyone else has seen, but it’s making headlines.
Josh Robb:
Yes.
Austin Wilson:
Recently.
Josh Robb:
Yep, just a little bit ago.
[0:55] – The Mega Millions Lottery
Austin Wilson:
We’ve seen the Mega Millions Lottery get over 1 billion-
Josh Robb:
With a B.
Austin Wilson:
With a B, dollars.
Josh Robb:
There was a lucky winner in Illinois, I believe.
Austin Wilson:
There was.
Josh Robb:
Yeah.
Austin Wilson:
This is an episode that we’re going to frame as a follow-up, because earlier in 2022, we did an episode talking about lump sums and some options you had with those, and some thinking we had. Well, let’s talk about that a little bit more today, and maybe talk about some of the pros and cons and pitfalls and other thoughts we have if you were to be the lucky winner and get your billion dollars, because that’s quite the windfall.
Josh Robb:
Now, the odds of winning the lottery are one in 300, and some million.
Austin Wilson:
Probably worse than that. I’d rather go get bit by a shark.
Josh Robb:
I think it’s 1 in 300 million, 1 in 300 million. The question is then, why do you care? Chances are pretty small. Well, a lot of people may experience, through other avenues, some form of lump sum received. Whether it’s an inheritance, maybe severance package from leaving an employer. Whether it’s a lawsuit, payout. There’s all different ways you could receive a lump sum, so you don’t have to just win the lottery for it.
[2:01] – Considering Lump Sum Taxes
Josh Robb:
In that last episode Austin was talking about, we talked a lot about the investing piece. Dollar cost averaging, putting it in right away. Which one’s better historically? But today, we’re going to talk about what are the other impacts of receiving a good chunk of money. the first one I can think of is taxes, right? If you get a big chunk of money-
Austin Wilson:
Like estate taxes?
Josh Robb:
Yes.
Austin Wilson:
Dallas taxes.
Josh Robb:
Yes. Depending on how you get it, there are different tax impacts, right? If you win the lottery, for instance.
Austin Wilson:
Oh, boy, here’s the numbers.
Josh Robb:
You owe taxes on that one, right? It’s going to be income to you and you’re going to pay income tax.
Austin Wilson:
A lot…
Josh Robb:
State and federal.
Austin Wilson:
…Of Taxes.
Josh Robb:
You will pay a lot. That billion-dollar winner, now that’s the annuity’s dollar amount, the lump sums’ less. We don’t have to get into all that, but it was still $700 million or whatever.
Austin Wilson:
Yeah.
Josh Robb:
That puts you in the highest tax bracket.
Austin Wilson:
By a lot, yeah.
Josh Robb:
Unfortunately. You’re paying high tax on that. State, federal, you’re probably looking at close to 40%.
Austin Wilson:
Oh, yeah.
Josh Robb:
When you add it all together.
Austin Wilson:
We should also probably clarify that, though we are using the lottery as an example, we are not condoning gambling or lottery buying of any sort. In fact, I’ve never actually bought a lottery ticket.
Josh Robb:
There you go.
Austin Wilson:
I’m not saying it’s bad if you do, but we’re not condoning that, and generally speaking, because of the odds, it should never be viewed as an investment.
Josh Robb:
Yep.
Austin Wilson:
Maybe not the wisest thing.
Josh Robb:
Stick with the 50/50 draft. Did you have the 50/50 chance?
Austin Wilson:
At the football game?
Josh Robb:
Yeah. It means you have a 50% chance, right? Isn’t that what they mean?
Austin Wilson:
That’s of course what they mean.
Josh Robb:
Like every time I buy it, there’s a 50% chance.
Austin Wilson:
You lose most of the time. So, how’s that work.
Josh Robb:
What’s happening.
Austin Wilson:
But just a little clarification to say we’re not con condoning the lottery.
Josh Robb:
Yeah. So on the same side of that would be severance from working those type of things. We’ll also be considered income. Any lump sum you receive that gets flown through your tax return as income. You’re going to owe taxes on that, on the reverse side, depending on how you get it. But a lot of inheritance will be tax free to you because the estate pays those taxes.
Austin Wilson:
Right.
Josh Robb:
From a tax standpoint, if you receive some inheritance, you may not have to worry about taxes at that moment, but depending on what happens going forward, whether it’s in an IRA or it’s in taxable account, you may owe taxes in the future.
When you get a lump sum, be Tax aware. How does this impact me? For instance, if I get a lump sum and let’s say it was settlement for an issue, and I get a chunk of money, I may have to re-look at changing my estimated payments or my withholdings, because now all of a sudden, I may have jumped a tax bracket and I’m not withholding enough for my other forms of income. There’s just things you have to look at from a tax standpoint, when you’re getting a lump sum of money.
Austin Wilson:
And if you were to come into that, probably one of the best people to talk to right away is your CPA.
Josh Robb:
Yes. Anytime you’re going to get a chunk of money, talk to your accountant and say, what do I need to be aware of? What should I be doing? Setting some money aside, making sure it’s not all tied up when taxes are due. Yes, definitely.
Austin Wilson:
So, another thing that if you trip across some lumps, you probably should go to the doctor. Yes.
Josh Robb:
Lump sums.
[4:50] – Changes in Estate Planning
Austin Wilson:
Some lumps. Yes. So yes, but anyway, so that’s taxes. Well, it does another impact we need to think of when we’re saying “Hey, lump sum here, big chunk of money. Wasn’t expecting. Another component… go.
Josh Robb:
Estates. What does my estate planning look like?
Austin Wilson:
Cause this’ll change it.
Josh Robb:
It will. It could potentially…
Austin Wilson:
If it’s big enough.
Josh Robb:
You know, if we’re looking more realistically at severance inheritance, things like that, it may not make it so you’re quitting your job and not doing anything, but you want to make sure that if something were to happen to you, this new asset is going to be passed on the way you want it to.
Austin Wilson:
Right.
Josh Robb:
Going back to the inheritance. If I receive these new accounts, I’m going to need to assign a beneficiary to these accounts or make sure that my will adequately reflects that these types of accounts will be passed on directly from an estate planning, this new lump sum of something comes in. I want to make sure if something were to happen to me, that it continues on. I don’t want it just being passed to the random person that I don’t know based on however the court decides.
Austin Wilson:
Oh yeah.
Josh Robb:
That’s not ideal. So from an estate planning standpoint, make sure that those line up, or maybe it’s an adjustment to say, “Hey, you know what … I was going to be giving it this way. But, but now I have more, I may want to include some charities into my estate planning, and you can start working through that”, while you’re calling your CPA. Maybe after you hang up with them, call your attorney or whoever does your state planning again, the mega millions, hundreds of millions of dollars.
That’s a whole other aspect. If you look more realistically, even receiving a car or house from an estate that changes things and you want to make sure it’s lined up correctly. So, that’s kind of what we’re looking at here when this lump sum comes in. Yeah, with that, we got our attorney, we got our CPA taken care of.
Austin Wilson:
Man, that’s two of the three big hitters.
[6:29] – Hiring a Financial Planner
Josh Robb:
What else do I need to do? Well, the financial planner needs to be there. So, then that comes to … all right. What are some of the pitfalls that we’ve seen that I’ve seen as a financial advisor is sometimes when you receive a big chunk of money, you then start looking at your bucket list and saying, “oh man, look at some of the things I can do now.”
Austin Wilson:
Right.
Josh Robb:
And you may spend some of that lump sum and quickly get into a higher cost of living and get comfortable living a little bit higher than you can afford long term. Because once that lump sum is gone and you’re used to a higher standard of living, it’s a little harder to go back down and so you do need to be careful.
Again, we’re talking more realistic that if you got an inheritance and maybe it was a $50,000 inheritance, which is great and it’s not necessarily life changing money forever. But if you start up in some of the things you’re doing or going out and buying cars and things like that, then the money’s gone, but you still have all these payments. It gets a little hard. One of the biggest pitfalls I have to see is that getting a big chunk of money, you start doing things and the money doesn’t quite go as far as you think it’s going too.
Austin Wilson:
Right.
Josh Robb:
And that’s huge.
Austin Wilson:
This makes me think.
Josh Robb:
Yes.
Austin Wilson:
Okay. So I’m going to put a caveat … to apple podcasts or whoever might try and flag this. I’m not saying a bad word. There’s a TV show called Schitts Creek. S C H I T T.
Josh Robb:
Yeah. It’s the town.
Austin Wilson:
Maybe they just want to.
Josh Robb:
It’s the name of the town?
Austin Wilson:
It’s a town people… Don’t flag me as explicit.
Josh Robb:
Don’t flag.
Austin Wilson:
So, in that show, there’s a waitress at the diner named Twyla. All right. Twyla is a waitress at the diner. She the entire series, for like six seasons. Doesn’t appear to have a dime cause she’s a waitress right. It comes out in the last episode…
Josh Robb:
No spoiler, hang on spoiler.
Austin Wilson:
Yeah. If you don’t, if you don’t want to…
Josh Robb:
I’ve haven’t watched that show. Cause I thought it was a bad word. But now I guess I can watch it. That’s okay.
Austin Wilson:
It’s a name of a townhouse.
Josh Robb:
Okay. I got it.
Austin Wilson:
That she had won the lottery. Oh wow. And so she actually had a crap ton of money, and actually what she did, she lived very modestly and so no one thought she had won the lottery or done anything. So she’s actually, you know, kind of done it right. But she actually ended up buying the diner where she worked.
Josh Robb:
There you go.
Austin Wilson:
That was her one big thing at the end. She didn’t do it until the end. So she’d been sitting on all this money for years and years. So anyway, that’s what this makes me think of. So don’t flag me as explicit. It’s a TV show based on a town name, okay.
Josh Robb:
But you’re right and let me come back to say, I don’t have a problem as a financial advisor of you utilizing lump sum to do some fun stuff with, but you have to have a plan. You have to understand how that fits in your overall picture.
Austin Wilson:
The people who working with no plan… woo.
Josh Robb:
That’s a problem. But if you were, let’s say behind on your retirement where you need to be, then spending all that and not helping catch back up is not a great long-term solution, but there’s a lot of people, in fact, more often not… I’m encouraging them to spend some of the money, to enjoy it because that would be a lot of times what that person had intended.
They’re given this money as an inheritance for an example. And the goal would be … Hey, I want you to use this, enjoy this and sometimes they’re like, well, I’m afraid to spend it. I just want to sit an account and it just sits there like, well, what’s the purpose? I don’t know. I just, I don’t know if it would feel good of spending it. Well, I don’t think they just gave you the money to look at it. So, there’s a balance there between spending it and enjoying it and utilizing it for a long term plan. And I think you got to find that balance between the two.
Austin Wilson:
Yeah. Like if you’ve got … like what you would tell someone is if you’ve got all the boxes checked.
Josh Robb:
Yep.
Austin Wilson:
It’s okay to spend your money.
Josh Robb:
Or in moderation, do a little bit of both. Like help fill a little bit. And even if it does get you all the way there, you’re closer and use a little bit and enjoy it now or pay off some of those debts or whatever it is that get you happy with where you’re at.
[10:15] – Dad Joke of the Week
Austin Wilson:
So, Josh, I have a dad joke of the week for you.
Josh Robb:
I need a dad joke. I do.
Austin Wilson:
And then… I have a great question for you.
Josh Robb:
Okay.
Austin Wilson:
This is from my terribly good dad joke book my wife got me a long time ago. Why did the dad stay home after eating seafood?
Josh Robb:
Oh man. Why would you stay home after eating seafood?
Austin Wilson:
Because he felt a little eel, he felt a little eel, which is a delicious sushi.
Josh Robb:
Okay. I’ll take your word for it.
[10:40] – What Would Josh Do if He Won the Lottery?
Austin Wilson:
Okay. So my question for you Josh… is, say you did not go out and buy a lottery ticket. So I gave you the lottery ticket and this lottery ticket won. Yes. Say the lump sum amount was $700,000. So, after taxes you’re well set. Yes. It’s a half a billion dollars or whatever. At the end of the day.
Austin Wilson:
What would you do with 500 million?
Josh Robb:
With 500 million?
Austin Wilson:
500 million dollars.
Josh Robb:
You know, I would probably invest the money and my wife always laugh. She’s like, “boring”. You know, that’s the boring response. And then set up a distribution plan with 500 million you could live off of the interest and dividends and be not only comfortable but finding ways to give that money away.
Austin Wilson:
You couldn’t give it away fast enough.
Josh Robb:
Oh geez. Yeah. And that was part of what I always said. You know, if you get that lump sum, it gives you that ability to look outward, at $500 million, your finances are set. Now you can start being an impact to others, charities that you like, causes that you’re passionate about.
Josh Robb:
And I think that’s where the enjoyment would come from for me, is finding those opportunities to enhance other people or other causes. That’s what I would be doing. And you just kind of set aside and say just, just a little bit of that income earning and I’m good.
Austin Wilson:
So, if The Invested Dads Podcast all of a sudden…
Josh Robb:
Just went huge.
Austin Wilson:
Just the Austin Show. Then that’s because Josh is all set.
Josh Robb:
But that’s the other thing, if you like what you’re doing, I don’t see why you’d quit, you know, just because you have a lot of money. I would still want to be doing something to help people. And that’s what I’m doing right now, and I enjoy it.
What would I splurge on? That’s the second question. I, yeah, I’m going to swing that back to you. Okay. Cause I just told you moderation. So, if you’re talking lottery, you got to be careful, not letting people know because there’s some crazy people out there. So, you got to be careful with your splurging in my opinion on that. But let’s just say I have extra money and for whatever reason, but I can spend it and it’s not going to cause safety concerns for the rest of my family. So, I just have money and I have extra, I think a splurge for me would be having a vacation home near water, lake or something, because that would be fun. That would be where I’d be at.
With kids, it’s all about memories spending time. But the other one, and this is kind of like an outlet. This is more a bucket list thing because I think I could still do it either way. Whether I get a bunch of money or don’t… is my grandpa had his pilot’s license. He used to fly and unfortunately, I never got to fly with him because by the time I was grown, he had stopped flying.
Austin Wilson:
Right.
Josh Robb:
So, it’s always been on my bucket list to get my pilot’s license. I’ve done nothing towards that. And don’t plan to with how busy I am with the kids and everything, but down the road, that would be cool. And I don’t have to like to own an airplane or anything. You can get your license and kind of rent to try that, but I thought that would be a cool thing to do.
Austin Wilson:
Yeah.
Josh Robb:
He told me stories of flying over the 4th of July and looking down at the fireworks. That just seems like a cool thing to do.
Austin Wilson:
It does.
Josh Robb:
And just the excitement and coolness of flying an airplane would be. Talk about a splurge. That’s where I would be.
Austin Wilson:
And even that splurge would be very doable.
Josh Robb:
Yeah. Like I said, it’s still bucket list for me one way or another, cause it’s not like I need a fleet of airplanes I just need … And like where we live there’s a local airport where I think you can still get a time there and get your license.
[14:01] – What Would Austin Do if He Won the Lottery?
Josh Robb:
So that’s me. I’m going to flip it around. Same question back to you. What would you do? But then also like a splurge.
Austin Wilson:
Yeah. I mean obviously the easy answers for me are I would try and still live a pretty modest life.
Austin Wilson:
Maybe we would slightly get nicer vehicles or whatever, but we wouldn’t go buy Lamborghini or something. Maybe. I don’t know …
Josh Robb:
Maybe one.
Austin Wilson:
Maybe one, but you know, it’s shoring up, retirement savings.
Josh Robb:
You’d be driving a Tesla. You would be driving a Tesla.
Austin Wilson:
I got hooked.
Josh Robb:
You would.
Austin Wilson:
That’s a whole different episode.
Josh Robb:
I know, but you would be driving a Tesla.
Austin Wilson:
I could afford it.
Josh Robb:
At that point.
Austin Wilson:
But yeah, shoring up finances and looking for a way to create some sort of generational giving wealth, where obviously that’s more money than any realistic person would have any business spending on their own. I would view that as crazy if you could do that.
Josh Robb:
Yeah. That’d be like a challenge, challenge accepted. I will spend this all.
Austin Wilson:
So I would… if you set it up to have like, you could literally set it up to be invested in some sort of trust format where you could fund your church or charities or on hold, you could fund a church plant somewhere and do something crazy.
Josh Robb:
I would stick to like for a private foundation is where you’d be, because then you could be a part of that decision making process but be able to… benefitting more than just you and your immediate family.
Austin Wilson:
Exactly. So things like that would be cool, but also just to have money set so that my kids would have just whatever we needed would not be a question, you know? Hey, you want to go to school? It’s already taken care of, or whatever. So those would be some cool things as a splurge I would like to buy … like you, property. I think property’s a good thing. I think I could probably swing it.
Josh Robb:
You got the money.
Austin Wilson:
I got the money. I think because my wife is a beach lover, I would try and buy some property on the beach, but make it big enough that it can be beach and then like a good size property to have like cabin and some dirt bike trail and all kinds of stuff. So a vacation property on the beach I think.
Josh Robb:
With some land.
Austin Wilson:
With some land. I think that would be it.
Josh Robb:
There you go.
Austin Wilson:
Maybe a Rolex. We’ll see.
Josh Robb:
Yeah. A nice watch.
[16:06] – Being Thoughtful About Your Extra Cash
Austin Wilson:
Why not? That’s not even going to put a dent in it. So anyway … Josh, any other thoughts on things we need to keep in our mind, as we’re saying, Hey, lump sums. What are those things to consider?
Josh Robb:
Yeah and again, the caveat be most likely you’re looking at a smaller lump sum than the mega millions- billion dollars. When you get a unexpected or maybe an expected sum of money, really just being thoughtful in the process. So like we said, the CPA, the attorney working through, talking to your financial advisor about the plan, but then the other thing with that is looking at it and saying, okay… am I teaching my kids what to do? Because they’re watching, right. If you have kids, they’re watching and what you don’t want to do is set the impression that any kind of additional money is just spent.
Austin Wilson:
Right.
Josh Robb:
The habits, and teaching that. So I think being transparent, if there is a lump sum with maybe some of the family members that are old enough to understand, to say, Hey look, we got some extra money and this is what we’re planning on doing with it. We’re going to do this, this and this, and this is why. I think you could definitely take a lump sum and turning into a teaching opportunity.
Austin Wilson:
Oh yeah.
Josh Robb:
And that’s to me… is for our generation, we’re little more open about finances and some prior generations, which I think is a good thing. But the idea is that if you can help them understand if they get in that situation, then they’ll also know, okay… I need to start talking to these people and thinking through it. There’s going to be generational wealth being passed. We’re seeing that happening now with the baby boomers starting to retire and the accumulation of wealth they have, that is going to be passed through. And if there could be some transparency and communication to know kind of what the goals and intent is, then it’s less confusion than a, “oh, I just found out that I’m going get a million dollars for my parents and no one’s prepared me for this”. That’s the worst thing that you want. Because more off than not then in a short period of time, there’s $0 left and there’s nothing from all that hard work from the prior generation to show the next one.
Austin Wilson:
Well, and that is the pitfall of the lottery… is there are a lot of lottery winners in the statistics show that they do very, very poorly at managing it. Most people end up in the same or worse financial conditions after they won the lottery than before. So it’s just a cautionary tale, I think of lump sums and not being prepared for what to do with that. And I think you brought up a good point about your kids is being a teaching opportunity is, depending on the amount of lump sum, you could do something so that you and your family have no need to work or think about anything for the rest of your life or their life or all of it. You know, just all… it’s a trust fund life. You know, you don’t need to work. Don’t need to think just spend money all the time. That’s a temptation. But I think of something that Warren Buffet has said… obviously a very wealthy guy.
Josh Robb:
He’s got some money.
Austin Wilson:
Got a little bit of money, little bit, even more than that mega millions. But he has really set up his wealth so that his kids are going to get some money but have to have a need to do something which gives them some sense of purpose in life and keeps them from turning into those financially irresponsible people.
Josh Robb:
Yeah. We have those conversations a lot. Like I remember talking to another advisor and that same thing is you have those generations who… if you’re not the one that earned the money, it’s less valuable to you. And so, if you were the next generation or the third generation to receive those… you look at some of those large families back in the day, like the Rockefellers and those type of ones. And as that generation moved from the family that generation that created it down, there was less value in that and less desire to preserve and continue that on.
And you’re right, it doesn’t have to be billions of dollars for that to be true is that .. if your parents worked really hard and they were able to have something left over to give you, and then it’s squandered, it’s kind of like, okay, what was the point in that whole process if there wasn’t some education to go along with it on the why? And that I think that’s huge. One of these things with a lump sum is if you get that, maybe think about creating a letter that explains the hope that this thing continues on. And so, if the lump sum is big enough, whether it’s inheritance or something that you say, you know what, this is actually going to last beyond my generation. You start educating and preparing the next generation to be good stewards of that and moving it forward.
Austin Wilson:
Absolutely.
[20:31] – Key Takeaways of Winning the Lottery
Josh Robb:
That would be the last one I had when it comes to lump sum. Communication is key. Whether it’s talking to your CPA or attorney, making sure everybody’s on the same page as that talking to your financial advisor, making sure that whatever this lump sum fits into your plan, but then finally communication with the next generation.
Josh Robb:
If your goal is for this to pass through, to make sure they understand the why behind it because like I said, if you don’t work as hard for it’s less valuable and you tend to be less attached to it and squander it. We’ve seen that a lot in our world.
Austin Wilson:
Yep. All right, Josh. Well, thank you for some great thoughts. Yeah. On lump sums and just things to consider because there’s a lot of good that can come out of it. There’s a lot of bad that can come out of it if you handle it incorrectly.
So, thank you for those thoughts. And thank you for listening to this episode. If you like this episode or had someone questioning what to do with a lump sum, share this episode with them. This could give them some tips and things to think about. Share with any family and friends that may be interested in that. And as always, as a reminder, you can email us any ideas you have or any questions you have to hello@theinvesteddads.com who would love to help answer those questions and Hey, we may turn it into a podcast episode. So, until next Thursday, thanks for being here. Have a great week.
Josh Robb:
Talk to your later.
Austin Wilson:
Bye.
Thank you for listening to The Invested Dads Podcast. This episode has ended, but your journey towards a better financial future, doesn’t have to. Head over to the Investeddads.com to access all the links and resources mentioned in today’s show. If you enjoyed this episode and we had a positive impact on your life, leave us a review, click subscribe, and don’t miss the next episode. Josh Robb and Austin Wilson work for Hixon Zuercher Capital Management, all opinions expressed by Josh, Austin or any podcast guest are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Hixon Zuercher Capital Management. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for investment decisions.
Clients of Hixon Zuercher Capital Management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. There is no guarantee that the statements, opinions or forecast provided here in will prove to be correct. Past performance may not be indicative of future results. Indexes are not available for direct investment. Any investor who attempts to mimic the performance of an index would incur fees and expenses, which would reduce returns. Securities investing involves risk, including the potential for loss of principle. There is no assurance that any investment plan or strategy will be successful.
